From andy@bitfolk.com Mon Sep  7 22:38:19 2020
From: Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a Direct
 Debit mandate?
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2020 22:38:18 +0000
Message-ID: <20200907223818.GY13298@bitfolk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello,

There is a frequent cause of confusion with Direct Debit.

The way Direct Debit works is, first you authorise an organisation
to make Direct Debit requests. This is called a Direct Debit
mandate. That gets sent to your bank. Once your bank accepts it the
organisation can then request funds from your bank.

At present BitFolk only requests funds by Direct Debit when there is
a mandate in place and:

a) A new invoice is created, or;

b) You go into the Panel and select one or more invoices to pay by
   Direct Debit.

Notably what does NOT happen ever is that invoices which already
exist are suddenly submitted by Direct Debit.

So what happens quite often is:

1. Invoice for ongoing service is created and emailed to customer.

2. Customer ignores this for some period of time.

3. A nagging automated email is sent saying this is going to be due
   soon. Quite often ignored for some time.

4. A more strident yet still automated nagging email is sent saying
   that it would be a really good idea to consider paying this now
   as otherwise there might be a loss of service.

5. Customer decides that Direct Debit would be convenient and does
   authorise a Direct Debit mandate now, but doesn't actually pay
   the outstanding invoice(s) by any means because they think they
   have now told us to take payments by Direct Debit and that it
   will just happen.

6. Invoice is now weeks overdue and an automated email is sent out
   saying that the service is now going to be suspended for
   non-payment.

7. Since non-payment suspensions are manual, we think to check if
   the customer recently authorised a Direct Debit mandate. If they
   did then we consider it likely that they thought that would do
   the job, so we have to contact them and explain and ask if they
   did actually want this existing invoice paid by DD. This is
   annoyingly manual, takes time, and is sometimes hard to explain.

There have been a non-zero number of occasions where we have
forgotten to check for a mandate in step #7 and have suspended the
customer's service for non-payment.

There have been many occasions where customers have received the
"you're being suspended for non-payment" email of step #6 and
contacted us in a panic.

Every time there is one of these misunderstandings I explain why
this happened and ask how they would like it to be changed so that
it doesn't happen any more, but sadly I have never really received
any concrete suggestions even from the people it has happened to. I'm
pretty sick of this happening so I want to do something about it.

So, I shall ask all of you, how would you expect it to work?

a) As soon as a mandate is authorised, just charge all existing
   invoices immediately

   Very tempting. Very simple. I fear there will be at least one
   person that will claim they never expected that to happen, and a
   returned Direct Debit has caused them to incur an eleventy
   billion pound penalty charge from their bank, their mortgage
   payment got rejected, and now there are men outside in shiny
   leather jackets.

b) As soon as the mandate is authorised, if the customer has
   existing invoices that are unpaid, there is a very noticeable
   message on the screen like:

       You seem to have unpaid invoices:

       #41234 £107.88
       #41239   £1.92

       Pre-existing invoices won't be automatically submitted for
       payment by Direct Debit. You can <a href="…">pay them now</a>
       by a one-off Direct Debit or any of our other supported
       payment methods.

I like (b).

I am open to other ideas if you have any. I can't really think of
any.

I understand that many people will be happy with (a), but I feel
it's one of those things that when there is someone that is unhappy,
they are very unhappy, and that wipes out the good feelings from the
many more people that never had a problem.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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From paul@pjlewis.org Tue Sep  8 05:50:51 2020
From: Paul Lewis <paul@pjlewis.org>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 05:50:38 +0000
Message-ID: <B568B9EF-8053-48DE-B576-EF123F7E1A00@pjlewis.org>
In-Reply-To: <20200907223818.GY13298@bitfolk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Can you not just keep credit card details on file and charge automatically? T=
hat=E2=80=99s what e.g. AWS does, and I can=E2=80=99t use their service witho=
ut a credit card on file.

From personal experience, my issue with b) is that I almost never log into th=
e Bitfolk web portal, so I simply wouldn=E2=80=99t see those warnings. If the=
se customers are ignoring warning email after warning email, what makes you t=
hink they would see (or heed) a warning in the panel?

Could you also capture mobile contact details and have an automated sms/teleg=
ram sent to customers in parallel with the emails? I=E2=80=99d have thought m=
ost people would be more likely to receive and acknowledge those types of not=
ifications?

Kind regards,

Paul

Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse brevity, spelling, and punctuation.

On 7 Sep 2020, at 23:38, Andy Smith <andy(a)bitfolk.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFHello,

There is a frequent cause of confusion with Direct Debit.

The way Direct Debit works is, first you authorise an organisation
to make Direct Debit requests. This is called a Direct Debit
mandate. That gets sent to your bank. Once your bank accepts it the
organisation can then request funds from your bank.

At present BitFolk only requests funds by Direct Debit when there is
a mandate in place and:

a) A new invoice is created, or;

b) You go into the Panel and select one or more invoices to pay by
  Direct Debit.

Notably what does NOT happen ever is that invoices which already
exist are suddenly submitted by Direct Debit.

So what happens quite often is:

1. Invoice for ongoing service is created and emailed to customer.

2. Customer ignores this for some period of time.

3. A nagging automated email is sent saying this is going to be due
  soon. Quite often ignored for some time.

4. A more strident yet still automated nagging email is sent saying
  that it would be a really good idea to consider paying this now
  as otherwise there might be a loss of service.

5. Customer decides that Direct Debit would be convenient and does
  authorise a Direct Debit mandate now, but doesn't actually pay
  the outstanding invoice(s) by any means because they think they
  have now told us to take payments by Direct Debit and that it
  will just happen.

6. Invoice is now weeks overdue and an automated email is sent out
  saying that the service is now going to be suspended for
  non-payment.

7. Since non-payment suspensions are manual, we think to check if
  the customer recently authorised a Direct Debit mandate. If they
  did then we consider it likely that they thought that would do
  the job, so we have to contact them and explain and ask if they
  did actually want this existing invoice paid by DD. This is
  annoyingly manual, takes time, and is sometimes hard to explain.

There have been a non-zero number of occasions where we have
forgotten to check for a mandate in step #7 and have suspended the
customer's service for non-payment.

There have been many occasions where customers have received the
"you're being suspended for non-payment" email of step #6 and
contacted us in a panic.

Every time there is one of these misunderstandings I explain why
this happened and ask how they would like it to be changed so that
it doesn't happen any more, but sadly I have never really received
any concrete suggestions even from the people it has happened to. I'm
pretty sick of this happening so I want to do something about it.

So, I shall ask all of you, how would you expect it to work?

a) As soon as a mandate is authorised, just charge all existing
  invoices immediately

  Very tempting. Very simple. I fear there will be at least one
  person that will claim they never expected that to happen, and a
  returned Direct Debit has caused them to incur an eleventy
  billion pound penalty charge from their bank, their mortgage
  payment got rejected, and now there are men outside in shiny
  leather jackets.

b) As soon as the mandate is authorised, if the customer has
  existing invoices that are unpaid, there is a very noticeable
  message on the screen like:

      You seem to have unpaid invoices:

      #41234 =C2=A3107.88
      #41239   =C2=A31.92

      Pre-existing invoices won't be automatically submitted for
      payment by Direct Debit. You can <a href=3D"=E2=80=A6">pay them now</a>
      by a one-off Direct Debit or any of our other supported
      payment methods.

I like (b).

I am open to other ideas if you have any. I can't really think of
any.

I understand that many people will be happy with (a), but I feel
it's one of those things that when there is someone that is unhappy,
they are very unhappy, and that wipes out the good feelings from the
many more people that never had a problem.

Cheers,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
users(a)lists.bitfolk.com
https://lists.bitfolk.com/mailman/listinfo/users



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From anahata@treewind.co.uk Tue Sep  8 06:22:44 2020
From: Anahata <anahata@treewind.co.uk>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
	Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 07:22:33 +0100
Message-ID: <F73844FB-B595-44D0-B54F-3D634E57D5C1@treewind.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <B568B9EF-8053-48DE-B576-EF123F7E1A00@pjlewis.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7947117906348724104=="

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Keeping credit cards on file needs the vendor to jump through all the hoops r=
equired for PCI compliance.
I agree that some customers rarely log into the portal. I'd miss an urgent me=
ssage if it was only there and not emailed.
I'd have thought that, at the point where a customer expresses a wish to pay =
by DD, you should offer the choice of using the DD to clear outstanding debt.=
 If they use the portal to set up DD payments, they should either do a one of=
f card payment via the portal, or tick a box authorising use of DD for that p=
urpose. Make that a precondition for setting up DD, then customer has to make=
 a conscious choice.
--=20
Anahata
anahata(a)treewind.co.uk
01535 501017 / 07976 263827
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail.

On 8 September 2020 06:50:38 BST, Paul Lewis <paul(a)pjlewis.org> wrote:
>Can you not just keep credit card details on file and charge
>automatically? That=E2=80=99s what e.g. AWS does, and I can=E2=80=99t use th=
eir service
>without a credit card on file.
>
>From personal experience, my issue with b) is that I almost never log
>into the Bitfolk web portal, so I simply wouldn=E2=80=99t see those warnings.
>If these customers are ignoring warning email after warning email, what
>makes you think they would see (or heed) a warning in the panel?
>
>Could you also capture mobile contact details and have an automated
>sms/telegram sent to customers in parallel with the emails? I=E2=80=99d have
>thought most people would be more likely to receive and acknowledge
>those types of notifications?
>
>Kind regards,
>
>Paul
>
>Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse brevity, spelling, and punctuation.
>
>On 7 Sep 2020, at 23:38, Andy Smith <andy(a)bitfolk.com> wrote:
>
>=EF=BB=BFHello,
>
>There is a frequent cause of confusion with Direct Debit.
>
>The way Direct Debit works is, first you authorise an organisation
>to make Direct Debit requests. This is called a Direct Debit
>mandate. That gets sent to your bank. Once your bank accepts it the
>organisation can then request funds from your bank.
>
>At present BitFolk only requests funds by Direct Debit when there is
>a mandate in place and:
>
>a) A new invoice is created, or;
>
>b) You go into the Panel and select one or more invoices to pay by
>  Direct Debit.
>
>Notably what does NOT happen ever is that invoices which already
>exist are suddenly submitted by Direct Debit.
>
>So what happens quite often is:
>
>1. Invoice for ongoing service is created and emailed to customer.
>
>2. Customer ignores this for some period of time.
>
>3. A nagging automated email is sent saying this is going to be due
>  soon. Quite often ignored for some time.
>
>4. A more strident yet still automated nagging email is sent saying
>  that it would be a really good idea to consider paying this now
>  as otherwise there might be a loss of service.
>
>5. Customer decides that Direct Debit would be convenient and does
>  authorise a Direct Debit mandate now, but doesn't actually pay
>  the outstanding invoice(s) by any means because they think they
>  have now told us to take payments by Direct Debit and that it
>  will just happen.
>
>6. Invoice is now weeks overdue and an automated email is sent out
>  saying that the service is now going to be suspended for
>  non-payment.
>
>7. Since non-payment suspensions are manual, we think to check if
>  the customer recently authorised a Direct Debit mandate. If they
>  did then we consider it likely that they thought that would do
>  the job, so we have to contact them and explain and ask if they
>  did actually want this existing invoice paid by DD. This is
>  annoyingly manual, takes time, and is sometimes hard to explain.
>
>There have been a non-zero number of occasions where we have
>forgotten to check for a mandate in step #7 and have suspended the
>customer's service for non-payment.
>
>There have been many occasions where customers have received the
>"you're being suspended for non-payment" email of step #6 and
>contacted us in a panic.
>
>Every time there is one of these misunderstandings I explain why
>this happened and ask how they would like it to be changed so that
>it doesn't happen any more, but sadly I have never really received
>any concrete suggestions even from the people it has happened to. I'm
>pretty sick of this happening so I want to do something about it.
>
>So, I shall ask all of you, how would you expect it to work?
>
>a) As soon as a mandate is authorised, just charge all existing
>  invoices immediately
>
>  Very tempting. Very simple. I fear there will be at least one
>  person that will claim they never expected that to happen, and a
>  returned Direct Debit has caused them to incur an eleventy
>  billion pound penalty charge from their bank, their mortgage
>  payment got rejected, and now there are men outside in shiny
>  leather jackets.
>
>b) As soon as the mandate is authorised, if the customer has
>  existing invoices that are unpaid, there is a very noticeable
>  message on the screen like:
>
>      You seem to have unpaid invoices:
>
>      #41234 =C2=A3107.88
>      #41239   =C2=A31.92
>
>      Pre-existing invoices won't be automatically submitted for
>      payment by Direct Debit. You can <a href=3D"=E2=80=A6">pay them now</a>
>      by a one-off Direct Debit or any of our other supported
>      payment methods.
>
>I like (b).
>
>I am open to other ideas if you have any. I can't really think of
>any.
>
>I understand that many people will be happy with (a), but I feel
>it's one of those things that when there is someone that is unhappy,
>they are very unhappy, and that wipes out the good feelings from the
>many more people that never had a problem.
>
>Cheers,
>Andy
>
>--
>https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
>_______________________________________________
>users mailing list
>users(a)lists.bitfolk.com
>https://lists.bitfolk.com/mailman/listinfo/users



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From andy@bitfolk.com Tue Sep  8 08:11:47 2020
From: Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 08:11:47 +0000
Message-ID: <20200908081147.GZ13298@bitfolk.com>
In-Reply-To: <B568B9EF-8053-48DE-B576-EF123F7E1A00@pjlewis.org>
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Hi Paul,

Thanks for your feedback.

On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 05:50:38AM +0000, Paul Lewis wrote:
> Can you not just keep credit card details on file and charge
> automatically?

Yes. That is a separate feature request (credit card payment already
exists - continuous credit card authority for automated billing by
credit card doesn't, but could). This question is for/about people
who want to pay by Direct Debit. We also like Direct Debit more than
credit cards, generally, so it's not going away.

> From personal experience, my issue with b) is that I almost never
> log into the Bitfolk web portal, so I simply wouldn’t see those
> warnings.

You have to go to the Panel to authorise the Direct Debit mandate in
the first place, so I am talking about putting the warning on screen
right there after you do that, if it would apply to you.

> what makes you think they would see (or heed) a warning in the
> panel?

My expectations are indeed low but the situation needs improving
from what it is now.

> Could you also capture mobile contact details and have an
> automated sms/telegram sent to customers in parallel with the
> emails? I’d have thought most people would be more likely to
> receive and acknowledge those types of notifications?

People can already optionally add more contact details to the Panel¹,
which does include phone numbers, but most customers don't. Should I
force people to provide a phone number? It would be a useful means
to contact people just before anything drastic happens, because I
will text someone if there is a number available to me.

I have never really seen billing notifications done by SMS and I
certainly couldn't restrict it to Telegram. As optional things,
sure.

In this thread I'd like to focus on the specific question of what if
anything should happen when someone authorises a Direct Debit
mandate and they already have outstanding invoices. Happy to take
suggestions for other things into other threads.

Cheers,
Andy

¹ https://panel.bitfolk.com/account/contacts/#toc-address-book

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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From andy@bitfolk.com Tue Sep  8 08:14:44 2020
From: Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 08:14:44 +0000
Message-ID: <20200908081444.GA13298@bitfolk.com>
In-Reply-To: <F73844FB-B595-44D0-B54F-3D634E57D5C1@treewind.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Anahata,

Thanks for your feedback.

On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 07:22:33AM +0100, Anahata via users wrote:
> Keeping credit cards on file needs the vendor to jump through all the hoops=
 required for PCI compliance.

I don't think it will be a problem with Stripe, our existing credit
card payment merchant. They can handle all of that headache. It's
just that I haven't made an integration for that yet. It's been a
long requested feature and I will get to it eventually.

> I'd have thought that, at the point where a customer expresses a
> wish to pay by DD, you should offer the choice of using the DD to
> clear outstanding debt.

Okay, that sounds like my suggestion (b), Thanks.

Cheers,
Andy

--=20
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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From space.dandy@icloud.com Tue Sep  8 08:39:04 2020
From: Chris Smith <space.dandy@icloud.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 09:38:52 +0100
Message-ID: <6D626E2E-9B6E-4FE8-B256-CB040943ABA3@icloud.com>
In-Reply-To: <20200907223818.GY13298@bitfolk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> On 7 Sep 2020, at 23:38, Andy Smith <andy(a)bitfolk.com> wrote:
>=20
> So, I shall ask all of you, how would you expect it to work?
>=20
> a) As soon as a mandate is authorised, just charge all existing
>   invoices immediately
>=20
>   Very tempting. Very simple. I fear there will be at least one
>   person that will claim they never expected that to happen, and a
>   returned Direct Debit has caused them to incur an eleventy
>   billion pound penalty charge from their bank, their mortgage
>   payment got rejected, and now there are men outside in shiny
>   leather jackets.
>=20
> b) As soon as the mandate is authorised, if the customer has
>   existing invoices that are unpaid, there is a very noticeable
>   message on the screen like:
>=20
>       You seem to have unpaid invoices:
>=20
>       #41234 =C2=A3107.88
>       #41239   =C2=A31.92
>=20
>       Pre-existing invoices won't be automatically submitted for
>       payment by Direct Debit. You can <a href=3D"=E2=80=A6">pay them now</=
a>
>       by a one-off Direct Debit or any of our other supported
>       payment methods.
>=20
> I like (b).
>=20
> I am open to other ideas if you have any. I can't really think of
> any.


c) You put a flag on all accounts preventing setting up a Direct Debit if the=
re are outstanding invoices.  This forces action by the user either to pay al=
l invoices then set up a DD, or call you to have the flag removed and pay eve=
rything by DD.  Either way the user should be in no doubt about what happens =
as a result.

Andy, I really appreciate your attitude towards customers, but sometimes I th=
ink you do try too hard.  If a user has ignored repeated warnings then it=E2=
=80=99s really not your problem to fix.  (Assuming the warnings were actually=
 sent=E2=80=A6 :P (That was a bit mean, sorry.))

Regards,
Chris
=E2=80=94
Chris Smith <space.dandy(a)icloud.com>



--===============2028895968786813808==--


From keithwilliamsnp@gmail.com Tue Sep  8 08:49:15 2020
From: Keith Williams <keithwilliamsnp@gmail.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 09:48:57 +0100
Message-ID:
 <CAMe3QpMTdDg8JbkbRegN39bGsDmSjLZ0RHmjFnCxftKFH+ihGw@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <20200908081444.GA13298@bitfolk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3780220667986034298=="

--===============3780220667986034298==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
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Option b
I also like the idea of text nudges

Keith

On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 09:15, Andy Smith <andy(a)bitfolk.com> wrote:

> Hi Anahata,
>
> Thanks for your feedback.
>
> On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 07:22:33AM +0100, Anahata via users wrote:
> > Keeping credit cards on file needs the vendor to jump through all the
> hoops required for PCI compliance.
>
> I don't think it will be a problem with Stripe, our existing credit
> card payment merchant. They can handle all of that headache. It's
> just that I haven't made an integration for that yet. It's been a
> long requested feature and I will get to it eventually.
>
> > I'd have thought that, at the point where a customer expresses a
> > wish to pay by DD, you should offer the choice of using the DD to
> > clear outstanding debt.
>
> Okay, that sounds like my suggestion (b), Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> --
> https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list
> users(a)lists.bitfolk.com
> https://lists.bitfolk.com/mailman/listinfo/users
>



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From iain@orangesquash.org.uk Tue Sep  8 08:59:22 2020
From: Iain Lane <iain@orangesquash.org.uk>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 09:59:18 +0100
Message-ID: <20200908085918.GJ1853755@nightingale.orangesquash.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <20200907223818.GY13298@bitfolk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 10:38:18PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote:
> b) As soon as the mandate is authorised, if the customer has
>    existing invoices that are unpaid, there is a very noticeable
>    message on the screen like:
> 
>        You seem to have unpaid invoices:
> 
>        #41234 £107.88
>        #41239   £1.92
> 
>        Pre-existing invoices won't be automatically submitted for
>        payment by Direct Debit. You can <a href="…">pay them now</a>
>        by a one-off Direct Debit or any of our other supported
>        payment methods.
> 
> I like (b).

Would it be possible to present this option /before/ the customer sets 
up the DD?  Like:

> [ email ]
> You owe us fifty quid. Plase pay it you scoundrel. You can set up a 
> direct debit by visiting
>
> https://panel.bitfolk.com/set-up-a-direct-debit

And then the UI there is

> You have the following outstanding invoices:
>
> [fifty quid] [Pay? y/n (a checkbox or something, ticked by default)]
>
> [Set up direct debit and pay £TOTAL]

Then it's not more reading/tasks to do after you've done the hard work 
of setting up the DD.

Cheers!

-- 
Iain Lane                                  [ iain(a)orangesquash.org.uk ]
Debian Developer                                   [ laney(a)debian.org ]
Ubuntu Developer                                   [ laney(a)ubuntu.com ]

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From bitfolk-lists-2015@gavinwestwood.uk Tue Sep  8 09:19:07 2020
From: Gavin Westwood <bitfolk-lists-2015@gavinwestwood.uk>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:18:59 +0100
Message-ID: <ca69552d-398e-e777-0b0e-bade823f55a0@gavinwestwood.uk>
In-Reply-To: <20200907223818.GY13298@bitfolk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On 07/09/2020 23:38, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
>
> There is a frequent cause of confusion with Direct Debit.
> <snip>
> Notably what does NOT happen ever is that invoices which already
> exist are suddenly submitted by Direct Debit.
> <snip>
> a) As soon as a mandate is authorised, just charge all existing
>    invoices immediately
>
> b) As soon as the mandate is authorised, if the customer has
>    existing invoices that are unpaid, there is a very noticeable
>    message on the screen like:
> <snip>

I'd suggest the customer has a choice of either in this circumstance,
but is required to explicitly choose.  To clarify - I'd suggest that, if
a customer has outstanding invoices when signing up for DD, they will be
forced to select one of two radio buttons before submitting, for example:

    You have existing outstanding invoices and must choose one of the
    two options below:

      * I authorise you to automatically take payment for currently
        outstanding invoices once the Direct Debit has been set up and
        (/legalese version of:/ accept responsibility for any fees
        incurred if this leads to insufficient funds for this or any
        other payments from my account); OR
      * I do not authorise you to take automatic payment for currently
        outstanding invoices.  I will make payment via alternate means
        or manually authorise payment once the Direct Debit is set up. 
        I understand that failure to pay will lead to a suspension of
        service.

This would not be shown if they did not have an outstanding debt.  This
covers you and hopefully makes it clear to them what, if anything, they
will need to do.

Gavin




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From john@sinodun.org.uk Tue Sep  8 09:35:35 2020
From: John Winters <john@sinodun.org.uk>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:35:34 +0100
Message-ID: <aa08b4a9-74f8-efe2-1e39-772eea95ac9f@sinodun.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <20200907223818.GY13298@bitfolk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On 07/09/2020 23:38, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> There is a frequent cause of confusion with Direct Debit.
[snip explanation]

I recall an incident the other way around which irritated me.

I had taken out a new credit card and asked if I could set up a DD to 
pay the whole amount each month.  I was told I had to wait for a bill.

When I got a bill it had a section on the back, "How to pay this bill" 
with several options - send a cheque, pay in person at a bank or post 
office, set up a DD.

As the last one was the one which I wanted I immediately filled in the 
DD bit and sent it back.  Job done I thought.

Then at the next bill I found they'd applied a penalty because I hadn't 
paid the last one.  When I complained they said it was my fault because 
I should have paid the first bill by a different method - although there 
was no indication of this in their instructions.

The person to whom I spoke tried to bullshit me by making up 
non-existent rules about direct debits.  I think the reality was that 
they just weren't set up to cope with that particular scenario.  They 
would have had to send out a separate notice of the proposed debit and 
their system didn't allow for that.


Getting back on topic - I think I would expect that once I've set up a 
DD with Bitfolk then all my outstanding bills would use it.  You have to 
send out a notice anyway, so I would see the process as:

1. Start with 2 outstanding bills
2. Set up DD mandate
3. Bitfolk immediately sends out notice of intended debit for above bills.
4. Debits happen at earliest legal date

And give the customer the option to opt out of this at the point of 
setting up the DD if they really want to.

John


-- 
Xronos Scheduler - https://xronos.uk/
All your school's schedule information in one place.
Timetable, activities, homework, public events - the lot
Live demo at https://schedulerdemo.xronos.uk/


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From john@sinodun.org.uk Tue Sep  8 09:57:57 2020
From: John Winters <john@sinodun.org.uk>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:57:55 +0100
Message-ID: <13018d64-5515-141b-6294-8518704a03c8@sinodun.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <20200908081147.GZ13298@bitfolk.com>
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On 08/09/2020 09:11, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> 
> Thanks for your feedback.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 05:50:38AM +0000, Paul Lewis wrote:
>> Can you not just keep credit card details on file and charge
>> automatically?
> 
> Yes. That is a separate feature request (credit card payment already
> exists - continuous credit card authority for automated billing by
> credit card doesn't, but could). This question is for/about people
> who want to pay by Direct Debit. We also like Direct Debit more than
> credit cards, generally, so it's not going away.

And as a customer, I much prefer DD too.  Continuous credit card 
authorities are potentially quite dangerous and don't have anything like 
the safeguards of DD.  The last time I checked, the CC companies simply 
had no way of cancelling them.  The way they are implemented, it would 
be quite hard for them to do.

John

-- 
Xronos Scheduler - https://xronos.uk/
All your school's schedule information in one place.
Timetable, activities, homework, public events - the lot
Live demo at https://schedulerdemo.xronos.uk/


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From hobson42@gmail.com Tue Sep  8 12:24:47 2020
From: Ian Hobson <hobson42@gmail.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 13:24:39 +0100
Message-ID: <c81b751c-8e1f-f1a0-446d-8647a5275709@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <20200907223818.GY13298@bitfolk.com>
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Hi,

I like option b) but what about people whose English is poor?

I live in Portugal, and have suppliers here who invoice me in 
Portuguese. My Portuguese is poor to non existent, so I could easily 
miss the subtleties of b).

You could automate the cut-off and charge a reconnection fee, that is 
both enough to deter people from doing it again and pay for your time. 
Isn't this what the mobile phone companies do?

Regards

Ian
-- 
Ian Hobson
Tel (+351) 910 418 473

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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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From andy@bitfolk.com Tue Sep  8 12:40:57 2020
From: Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:40:57 +0000
Message-ID: <20200908124057.GW31926@bitfolk.com>
In-Reply-To: <6D626E2E-9B6E-4FE8-B256-CB040943ABA3@icloud.com>
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Hi Chris,

Thanks for the feedback.

On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 09:38:52AM +0100, Chris Smith via users wrote:
> c) You put a flag on all accounts preventing setting up a Direct
> Debit if there are outstanding invoices.  This forces action by
> the user either to pay all invoices then set up a DD, or call you
> to have the flag removed and pay everything by DD.  Either way the
> user should be in no doubt about what happens as a result.

To be honest this just sounds like it's making it harder to pay and
encouraging support interaction, which is taking things in the wrong
direction. The present confusion seems to happen because people WANT
to pay - and think they have arranged to!

A comment that a number of people have made now is that they think
people might not read the text about "this only pays for FUTURE
invoices" even if it's right there on the bit of the page where they
have to authorise the mandate. Perhaps we should send an email too,
at the point where the mandate is authorised?

> Andy, I really appreciate your attitude towards customers, but sometimes I =
think you do try too hard.

Well if it causes confusion it means the process isn't good enough.
I can berate people for not reading it properly but ultimately it's
my problem to fix.

Cheers,
Andy

--=20
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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From andy@bitfolk.com Tue Sep  8 12:44:04 2020
From: Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:44:04 +0000
Message-ID: <20200908124404.GX31926@bitfolk.com>
In-Reply-To: <20200908085918.GJ1853755@nightingale.orangesquash.org.uk>
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Hi Iain,

Thanks for the feedback.

On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 09:59:18AM +0100, Iain Lane wrote:
> Would it be possible to present this option /before/ the customer sets 
> up the DD?

Yes. That sounds like a good idea. If there are already outstanding
invoices then there would be a message on the mandate page saying
"also pay for these outstanding invoices?" with a pre-checked box as
you say.

Then only display the same message afterwards if they chose not to
pay them.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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From andy@bitfolk.com Tue Sep  8 12:46:18 2020
From: Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:46:18 +0000
Message-ID: <20200908124618.GY31926@bitfolk.com>
In-Reply-To: <ca69552d-398e-e777-0b0e-bade823f55a0@gavinwestwood.uk>
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Hi Gavin,

Thanks for the feedback.

On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 10:18:59AM +0100, Gavin Westwood wrote:
> I'd suggest the customer has a choice of either in this circumstance,
> but is required to explicitly choose.

Yeah, good idea. Similar to the checkbox one, but with two radio
buttons so as to make it explicit that payment will still need to be
manually made for those ones afterwards.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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From andy@bitfolk.com Tue Sep  8 12:59:54 2020
From: Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: [bitfolk] DD vs continuous credit card authority (Was: Re: What do
 you expect to happen when you authorise a Direct Debit mandate?)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:59:54 +0000
Message-ID: <20200908125954.GZ31926@bitfolk.com>
In-Reply-To: <13018d64-5515-141b-6294-8518704a03c8@sinodun.org.uk>
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Hello,

On Tue, Sep 08, 2020 at 10:57:55AM +0100, John Winters wrote:
> And as a customer, I much prefer DD too.  Continuous credit card authorities
> are potentially quite dangerous and don't have anything like the safeguards
> of DD.

Going off on a bit of tangent but yes, the Direct Debit guarantee is
very consumer-oriented as you can dispute any DD transaction (even
years old ones) without having to give a reason and you get your
money back; the merchant has to pursue you for it.

More than once I've had people say they want to pay by PayPal
because they don't trust DD, which really baffles me because PayPal
take a continuous CC authority on at least one of their cards as a
funding source, which means they gave PayPal the ability to take an
unlimited amount of money from them, over and over until the card
details expire or the card is cancelled.

While credit card providers are usually willing to entertain a
chargeback, they aren't legally obliged to. And as you say, there is
no way to stop a company with a continuous authority from charging
you again and again.

We like DD though mainly because the fees are less than the other
methods and the GoCardless API is fairly nice to work with.

Continuous credit card authority is still something that we have to
implement because non-UK customers can't use DD¹.

Cheers,
Andy

¹ GoCardless do operate in more jurisdictions, including all the
  popular ones like EU, US and AU, but to take payments that way
  BitFolk would have to operate bank accounts in all those
  currencies, which is a bit inconvenient.

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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From ARansom@gmail.com Tue Sep  8 20:14:00 2020
From: Andrew Ransom <ARansom@gmail.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] What do you expect to happen when you authorise a
 Direct Debit mandate?
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 21:13:27 +0100
Message-ID:
 <CAEB2AVAj99XiKrSFX3CPLy649AdzKxCnDdyRawfabdHXNAZhPA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <20200907223818.GY13298@bitfolk.com>
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On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 23:38, Andy Smith <andy(a)bitfolk.com> wrote:

> I like (b).
>
> I am open to other ideas if you have any. I can't really think of
> any.
>
> I understand that many people will be happy with (a), but I feel
> it's one of those things that when there is someone that is unhappy,
> they are very unhappy, and that wipes out the good feelings from the
> many more people that never had a problem.
>

Personally I think option a would be fine for me, but there is always the
possibility it might be an issue and taking your point above I'd be happy
with option b.

  Andy



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From bitfolk-users@latter.org Wed Sep  9 14:59:05 2020
From: Dom Latter <bitfolk-users@latter.org>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] DD vs continuous credit card authority (Was: Re: What
 do you expect to happen when you authorise a Direct Debit mandate?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:59:01 +0100
Message-ID: <18340f59-f7f5-3b28-c3c6-563cd5158abb@latter.org>
In-Reply-To: <20200908125954.GZ31926@bitfolk.com>
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On 08/09/2020 13:59, Andy Smith wrote:
> We like DD though mainly because the fees are less than the other
> methods and the GoCardless API is fairly nice to work with.

But what do you like *most*?  Direct bank transfer has presumably no
fees at all...


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From andy@bitfolk.com Wed Sep  9 15:16:34 2020
From: Andy Smith <andy@bitfolk.com>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] DD vs continuous credit card authority (Was: Re: What
 do you expect to happen when you authorise a Direct Debit mandate?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:16:34 +0000
Message-ID: <20200909151634.GO31926@bitfolk.com>
In-Reply-To: <18340f59-f7f5-3b28-c3c6-563cd5158abb@latter.org>
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Hello,

On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 03:59:01PM +0100, Dom Latter wrote:
> On 08/09/2020 13:59, Andy Smith wrote:
> >We like DD though mainly because the fees are less than the other
> >methods and the GoCardless API is fairly nice to work with.
> 
> But what do you like *most*?  Direct bank transfer has presumably no
> fees at all...

Sure it is nice to get bank transfers near enough on time for the
correct amount and with correct identifying reference, that's ideal.

But I have the feeling that on average, the smoothness of an
automated system is worth 1% + £0.20 a go (capped at £2.00).

At this point I always say, these are just my opinions; please pay
by whichever supported method is most convenient for you.

The worst one is postal order¹. ;)

Cheers,
Andy

¹ This has happened exactly once. I think the service charge for
  that at the post office is about 12%.

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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From john@sinodun.org.uk Wed Sep  9 16:37:44 2020
From: John Winters <john@sinodun.org.uk>
To: users@mailman.bitfolk.com
Subject: Re: [bitfolk] DD vs continuous credit card authority (Was: Re: What
 do you expect to happen when you authorise a Direct Debit mandate?)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:37:43 +0100
Message-ID: <17105563-561c-8366-0bb4-548aa254f557@sinodun.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <20200909151634.GO31926@bitfolk.com>
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On 09/09/2020 16:16, Andy Smith wrote:
[snip]
> The worst one is postal order¹. ;)
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> ¹ This has happened exactly once. I think the service charge for
>    that at the post office is about 12%.

Back when I ran The Linux Emporium, postal orders were still fairly 
common and we got quite a few.  Worst of all was a postal order for 50p, 
because it cost most of the 50p to bank it.

John

-- 
Xronos Scheduler - https://xronos.uk/
All your school's schedule information in one place.
Timetable, activities, homework, public events - the lot
Live demo at https://schedulerdemo.xronos.uk/


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